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TV Program
Original airdate: 6/18/06
Today on It Is Written, we are going to talk about one of the touchiest subjects in North America. I have a very special guest with me today who knows what he is talking about when it comes to the issue of same-sex relationships and the debate that is raging over gay rights.
On a recent edition of It Is Written, I spoke to a man who used to be part of the gay community, but now tells the incredible story of how his life has been utterly transformed by the power of God. He told us how God is able to take any circumstance in your life and completely turn it around, no matter how impossible it might seem to you.
Today, Ron is a Christian minister who helps many people find new hope in his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And today Ron is here to help me understand some of the mistakes Christians have made in relating to the gay community. He is here to give us some advice, encouragement and hope as we find ways to share God's love with our neighbors who might be struggling with this very same issue.
INTERVIEW:
SHAWN: Ron, it's just fantastic to be together again in the studio. Great to see you.
RON: It's good to be back on with you.
SHAWN: You know, Ron, this is, again, one of the touchiest subjects in North America today. And one experience that I have had is members of the gay community have come to me, as a minister, oftentimes with tears in their eyes, and share a story of how somebody who goes to church has treated them. You know, somebody called them names, or somebody spit in their direction or something like that.
And so the question that I've come to wonder is, in the gay community, is there this perception that the church, the Christian church, is the enemy? How is the church perceived by the gay community?
RON: Well, I can only speak from my own experience. Again, I'm not a professional in these areas. I am only a professional in my own experience. And in my situation, I felt that the church had really let me down because the comments that were made about me were, that I could not be changed.
In fact, that's why I titled my book the way I did, ”That Kind Can Never Change. Can They?” Because this was the position that people of prominence in our church were taking. And yet, the church is trying to convert people from lives of sin, to come to Christ and give themselves to Jesus.
To me there was hypocrisy, there was a double standard. And so the confusion that was generated by that, I think really works against a homosexual. On one hand, the church will say that we will be sinning until Jesus comes. The law was nailed to the cross. But you better change your life or you'll never go to heaven. And so my question would be: Why do I have to change if you dontt have to change? Why is my sin something that has to be overcome whereas your sin is not?
So we have to be careful in the Christian church about having double standards. And to me, what I was looking for so strongly in trying to come back to God, because I knew I was lost, was consistency.
God says, "Come now, let's reason together."
The gospel is reasonable, it's logical and it's consistent. And this is what I needed to find in the church. I needed to see consistency as well as unconditional love and acceptance.
SHAWN: Now Ron, I think one thing that many people have struggled with is, they think, "Now listen, if somebody murders, that can make sense. They might have been in a fit of rage. It's the wrong thing to do, but I can see how it would happen."
Or they say, "That person stole, but I can see how they might do that because their kids were hungry or they were a little short on their pay this week. So it might be wrong, but I understand how they did that."
But the homosexual thing, that doesn't make sense, that is different. That's different than every other sin.
RON: Well, it's different because it's not their sin. And this is something that I really like to point out. When I was trying to come back to the Lord, people, well-meaning Christians, would sit across the table from me and ask if the Lord was giving me victory over my cigarettes, while they were leading me into sin of another kind at that very moment. Again, there was that inconsistency and I began to think, you know, there must be two kinds of sin. There must be acceptable sins and unacceptable sins, socially or spiritually or what have you.
And then I came to the conclusion, I know how to define what is acceptable and what isn't. Mine are, yours aren't.
SHAWN: Right.
RON: And that's the way it seems to be. People who don't understand homosexuality can condemn it and look down on it. And, of course, God condemns the behavior of homosexuality, too. But the same person may think it's just a very macho thing to be sleeping around with women, a man sleeping with women.
SHAWN: Of course.
RON: But it's still the same commandment and here we go back to the word, consistency. For us, as Christians, to be effective in our ministry to homosexuals, we need to first of all, I think, be able to define sin. If we are going to overcome the enemy, militarily speaking, we need to define the enemy. We need to know who he is. We need to know what we are up against. And so we need to define sin and there is one definition in the Bible. "Sin is the transgression of the law."
SHAWN: Right. 1 John three, verse 4.
RON: That's right. And so someone comes to me and says that your life is a life of sin. Well, if I can very easily point to a commandment that they are breaking, then they have no credibility with me. If they are saying, "Well that commandment was nailed to the cross or the law was nailed to the cross," well then don't come to me and say I'm sinning, because sin is the transgression of the law that you say is nailed to the cross.
And so we have to have that kind of a point of reference and that is so important for someone like me to see that the Christian is speaking consistently and with authority. It must be based upon the Word of God.
And another thing that is so important, is there must be love and compassion and genuine interest in me as a person, as a sinner. That's the way Jesus was. He mingled with the outcasts.
SHAWN: Absolutely.
RON: He didn't condone what they were doing, He did not participate in what they were doing, but He loved them enough to touch them, to mingle with them, to socialize with them. But not in a sinful way.
SHAWN: Now that raises another good question. You pointed out a couple of things. One of them being one that many Christians don't understand. I think that is probably one of the biggest hang-ups Christians have. A son or a daughter reveals to them that they are involved in a gay lifestyle, or a good friend or a co-worker. And a lot of Christians say, I don't know how to deal with that. I don't understand it. I don't know how to relate to that.
And so the question I have for you is this, Ron. What do Christians do to reach out to homosexuals? How do you reach out in a way that expresses the love you were just talking about, but doesn't appear to be condoning a lifestyle?
RON: That is a very touchy issue, a very difficult thing to really nail down, I believe, with most Christians. I think what worked so well with me, with my family and friends, is they didn't make me feel like an outcast. They loved me. They visited with me. They stayed in my home when they came across the country to visit me here in Southern California. They loved my friends. And they showed them that unconditional love and acceptance, though it was very clear that they did not condone our lifestyle.
And so I think, as Christians, we really have to focus on how Jesus met the sinner. He was not afraid to touch the leper. He would not be afraid to put His hand upon someone with AIDS and pray for that person. The homosexual tends to feel totally ostracized many times. And we need to just relate to that. Don't make them feel like they are a leprous kind of sinner, because biblically, homosexuality is no more of an abomination than any other kind of adultery or pride or lying or many other kinds of sins.
SHAWN: Listen, I think some of the issues, some of the fear in the church, again, has to do with a lack of understanding. Ron, previously, you shared with me a very interesting concept and it has to do with this word, orientation. I hear that word a lot on the news. We don't want to discriminate because of orientation. It's a buzzword in the legal debate that is raging right now. Share with the viewers today what your perspective is on orientation.
RON: Well, I do get a little criticism because of my take on orientation. But I have looked up the word in the dictionary and I also relate to my own experience. In my youth, I was a pilot for a while. Then I was a hang glider pilot here in Southern California for eight years. And I base orientation upon a compass and direction. And too often the word orientation is used for the nature of someone's temptations. And I can understand that.
But, from a biblical perspective, when you are born again, when you are choosing a new life, your orientation is the direction you now set for yourself. You know where you are, you know where you have been. And you know where you are going. And by God's grace you aim yourself in that direction and He makes sure you get there.
You know, as a pilot, I flew in cross winds and head winds and in violent storms, but I always reached my destination. Because I did not let the wind determine my orientation. Neither should we, as Christians, allow the temptations of Satan to define our orientation. That is His plan for my life and for your life.
And so I use the term orientation to define the direction I have chosen, because God has given us that marvelous gift of the power of choice. And He promises that His grace is sufficient.
So that is the way I use orientation. It doesn't mean that we are without temptation ever.
SHAWN: Right.
RON: But it means that we have charted a course and by God's grace we're going to meet our destination.
SHAWN: We'll land that plane on the runway, even if the wind is blowing crosswise.
RON: That's right.
SHAWN: It sounds to me, though, that that perspective applies to more than the homosexual debate.
I mean if my temptation is alcohol or someone today who is watching has a temptation with pornography or something else, it's the same thing. Those are the winds. But your orientation can be different than the wind.
RON: Yes, and people are using the phrase sexual orientation to put forth the idea that this is something unchangeable. Recently, a very popular social columnist suggested that we not refer to homosexuality as a sexual preference, but a sexual orientation. And I'm thinking, why? Why can't we say preference?
If we choose to stay there, it is our preference. When God has provided a way out, if we choose to stay there, it is a preference. Yes, it is an orientation and a preference. And I believe we need to be very clear that it is something that can be overcome just like any other sin. Otherwise, God is impotent rather than omnipotent and we Christians don't dare go there.
SHAWN: Right. Ron, what is the Christian church's responsibility to the gay community?
RON: I think the Christian church needs to be, as I said earlier, consistent. I think the Christian church needs to be able to quote from the Bible the definition of sin so that it is clear that they understand what sin is. And once they accept the Bible definition of sin, then they need to be able to call sin by its right name.
Jesus was not timid about calling sin by its right name. But no one could ever accuse Him of not doing it with tears in His voice, with love in His heart. If someone is about to die in a burning building, drastic measures sometimes need to be taken, and force sometimes needs to be used to get someone out. I'm not suggesting that the church use force, but I am saying forceful language. But it can be done in love and compassion. And we need to make sure that we mingle our clear message and our authoritative message with love and compassion.
We need to realize there is power in the Word. Otherwise we, as a church, are demonstrating a form of godliness, denying the power thereof.
When someone like me is looking for sanctuary and for healing, we don't mind our toes being stepped on. When I went to church, I didn't want a weak watered-down message attempting to make me feel good. I did not mind. I was looking for something very strong, but very clear. I wanted it to be black and white so that I could really grab onto something. I didn't want my experience to be an exercise in futility.
SHAWN: And that's very interesting to me. So often, as Christians, we shy away
from issues, I think largely because of the way SOME Christians have preached the issues. I have heard people say, "Well, God hates homosexuals." Or, I hear a lot of people talking about, "You're lost, you're lost," and you get the impression God wants you that way. But there is a way to tell the truth and do it with tears in your voice and tears in your eyes, the way Jesus did, just as you have said.
And it's interesting to me that you wanted to hear. I think when the Holy Spirit is working on somebody's heart, they do want to hear the truth. I don't think there is any question about it.
RON: Yes, and when you look in the Bible to Genesis 3:15, that is where the very first promise of the plan of salvation is actually made to Satan. I think that's very interesting. He says, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed." Just stopping right there. Basically, what Jesus is saying is that I will create in the hearts of my people a hatred for Satan, a hatred for sin, a hatred for evil. Now, if the Holy Spirit is working that out in my life and I despise my life of self-destruction and degradation, I don't want to go to a church and hear that you will be sinning until Jesus comes again. That leaves me feeling helpless and hopeless.
I now have this repulsion for what I am doing. I want a new life and from the pulpit, I'm being told that's impossible. And we Christians have to be able to respond to this need in the heart of the homosexual and any other sinner, this need and desire for change and for recreation, for re-conditioning, for newness of life.
SHAWN: One of the hottest subjects being debated right now is whether or not there ought to be an amendment to the constitution permanently entrenching marriage as an institution between a man and a woman. As someone who was in the gay community who's now a Christian minister, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that amendment. I have heard debates within the church on both sides.
RON: Well, I think the theory is, that we would be legislating morality and that is not the case. Many of our civil laws are based upon the moral law of God's ten commandments. "Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill." It used to be, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." I don't know if that one has fallen by the wayside now. But there are stiff penalties for people breaking these laws that are based upon morality established by God Himself.
Now to legislate protection of morality cannot be wrong. It is not legislating morality, it's legislating protection of morality. And if we do not protect this institution of marriage, that is so many millennia old, what then happens if we legalize the marriage of homosexuals? And how do we stop? I mean once the floodgate is open, how do we stop the legalization of immorality? What about polygamy? What about incest?
SHAWN: Right.
RON: What about pedophilia? Sins that we find disgusting. But, you know, someone else doesn't. Well, I think we as Christians have an obligation to vote in favor of protecting morality. That is why I would be in favor of that kind of amendment. It is not taking anything from anybody.
SHAWN: Right.
RON: But it is protecting this sacred institution and traditional civil institution.
SHAWN: Ron, let's move into a little bit more of a personal perspective. We have talked about the church at large relating to the gay community, relating to government and politics and I wish we had so much more time for these subjects today and we just don't. But I really want to get to a personal level. Somebody watching today, some family has just found out that a son or a daughter is involved in the gay lifestyle or someone has just come out of the closet. I guess the questions are, What does a parent do when they find out? When your family first found out what was happening, what do you wish they had said? What does a parent do? What is the wisest step to take? And I know those are almost impossible to answer, but a lot of people are going through it, right now at this moment and that's why I'm asking you.
RON: That is such a tough question because, again, I just think back on my own experience and I ask, what in the world could anyone have done for me? And everyone that tried, failed. And they made terrible mistakes. I don't know that I was approachable, frankly. By the time I came to the point where I was overt in my behavior, it was too late. If there was anything that could have been done ahead of time, I don't really know because I was so private and secretive that no one knew I had a struggle. It came as a total shock and surprise to my family. And I remember that my parents went to great lengths, they blamed themselves, they blamed other people, they begged me, they pleaded with me, they cried, they sent preachers, all things that were uninvited.
And I think I have to say that you can only go as far as you are welcome. Make sure your doors are open. Do not condemn the child or the young adult or whoever. Do not condemn. Show them that unconditional love. Show them that acceptance. Let them know that you don't agree. But don't recoil in horror. Don't try to send them to a doctor. Just pray without ceasing. That's another thing. Two things that I think worked with my parents toward me, they loved me unconditionally and accepted me, although they didn't condone my sin and they prayed. They interceded that the Lord would do whatever it took to open my heart to bring me to a position to get my attention.
SHAWN: Right.
RON: And they committed me to the Lord.
SHAWN: Ron, I think that's good advice for all of us. So often, we want to reach in and fix people or fix things without people choosing. And God Himself doesn't force people to turn to Him.
RON: Right, He cannot fix.
SHAWN: He loves them, He appeals, but He never forces. If there was one thing that you would say to every Christian watching today, relating to the gay community, just one way to wrap it up, a phrase or two, what would it be?
RON: Well, I'll try to do two things real quickly. Jeremiah three, God Himself is limited in this area, until we ask. He says, "Only acknowledge thine iniquity and I will heal your backsliding."
So we have to be able to acknowledge our iniquity. But, we as Christians need to believe and practice that our God is mighty to save the whosoevers from whatsoever, even to the uttermost. If we believe it, then we are consistent in our belief system.
SHAWN: Ron, thank you for joining me today. I value your friendship and I value you as a brother in the Lord.
You know, as I read the Bible, I see that God has called us to be light in a dark world. Jesus called us the "salt of the earth." And that means that we're here to do something special. When all the world is mixed up in its belief system and we begin to place value on the wrong things, it's important for Christians to be a light, not only of truth, but also of God's love.
Today, I would like to emphasize that I believe God is doing something very special in the homosexual community, and I know a lot of you watching today are struggling with this issue in one way or another. Either you're struggling with unwanted feelings, or you are struggling because someone you know and love is caught up in a destructive lifestyle.
I am praying that God would give us the wisdom and the love to reach out to people in a community that we have really failed to reach up till now. And Ron, I'd appreciate it if maybe we could pray together. And let's pray for Christians today who are struggling with this in their own lives or in their family. Would you pray with me?
PRAYER:
Our Father in Heaven, again we come to you with grateful hearts for your marvelous plan of salvation, that you love the sinner, though you hate the sin. And I pray that you'll help us as Christians to truly be consistent in our belief and to truly trust that you have the power to change the unchangeable. And as we can accept this and believe it and practice is belief in our lives, we will be more effective in reaching out to those who think of themselves as helpless and hopeless. So supply us with this grace we pray. In Jesus' name, amen.
*For more information on this topic, please visit www.victorjadamson.com
Purchase his book in English or Spanish.
Purchase the "Compassion Without Compromise" DVD.
Scriptures Used in “Compassion Without Compromise”
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
—Genesis 3:15 (KJV)
“Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God."
—Jeremiah 3:22 (NIV)